Boathouse Restaurant-Forest Park-St. Louis, MO
So we’re continuing with yesterday’s post on dogs and dining. Having waded through all 169 comments from the Pensacola, FL and Albany, NY blog posts, what I want to know is this: What is it about dogs and dining that so polarizes people opinions?
Some of the angst seems directed at the notion that “nicer,” indoor-seating-only restaurants will be the targets of pet owners’ savage beasts. But frankly, most of us are just looking for a few bars, cafes, and outdoor doggie dining options to enjoy with our well behaved, leashed companions. If that message were better communicated, would some of the anxiety dissipate? For the rest of this post, let’s imagine that’s what I’m talking about.
Fearrington Village-near Durham, NC
Points and Counterpoints –
The most gracious pro-doggie dining comments simply pointed out that it’s all about having a choice:
- Everyone should have a place to go.
- People who prefer to dine sans dogs have many more alternatives available than do people with dogs
- The decision for a restaurant to go pet friendly should lie with the business owner, not with a city ordinance/state law mandate.
I distilled the negative blog comments down to these major objections … and provided a response that is consistent with GoPetPetFriendly’s manifesto and pet travel code of conduct.
#1. We just don’t understand why you can’t leave your dog at home. You’ll only be gone a short time … sheesh! It doesn’t matter if you don’t understand. Your comprehension of why and where people want to be with their pets is not relevant to the argument. And note that I didn’t pull out the “kid card” here.
#2. It’s inconsiderate for pet owners to foist their dogs on people who prefer to eat without dogs. Maybe. But you have so many choices where you can eat. People with pets don’t.
#3. Dogs are unsanitary. They lick themselves and do their business in plain view. Hmmm. I’ve seen people pick their noses and resume eating. Stick their gum under the table without a second thought. Watched parents rest their baby/toddler on a table wearing an exposed diaper. Ever wonder why employees need to be reminded to wash their hands before returning to work from a trip to the bathroom? Also, dogs walk on the same ground we do and track in the same detritus we do, albeit on four feet instead of two. To convince me of this point’s merit, I need to see statistics that support claims of humans catching diseases from dogs … in restaurants.
#4. Your dogs are not well behaved. This is one issue I can’t disagree with – because, generally, I concur. My experience is that too many people don’t take the time to properly train their dogs. It only takes a couple of barking/snarling/ growling incidents for non-pet lovers to believe all dogs should be left behind.
#5. People are allergic to dogs. Yes they are. According to one website, about 10 million Americans (3.3% of the 300 million population) are allergic to dogs. Another site says: From 15 percent to 30 percent of people with allergies have allergic reactions to cats and dogs… Cat allergies are about twice as common as dog allergies. Note that this statistic is not 15-30% of the population, just 15-30% of the subset of people who have allergies. And again, if you’re allergic, you can choose to eat inside or at a completely different restaurant.
#6. A dog might bite a customer, and the restaurant would be liable. That’s an issue for the owner to consider and protect against, not you or me.
#7. It’s against health code regulations. True. But not all laws make sense, and some bad laws are made as a result of special interests, misconceptions, or lack of good information. And let’s not imagine that Europeans are less sanitary than Americans (or Canadians) because they allow dogs inside restaurants, whereas we’re still talking about outdoor doggie dining.
Huck Finn's-La Crosse, WI
Tips for People Dining With Dogs –
- If your pooch is not ready for prime time, don’t put him on the stage. Train and socialize your dog to behave like it is going to be a service dog, which is generally overlooked by everyone.
- Sit at a table where your dog can be out of the way, both of other customers and the wait-staff.
- Be alert for the comings and goings of others so you can anticipate issues before they occur.
- If your dog acts up, leave. No fuss, no muss. Apologize, if appropriate. Imagine yourself doing better the next time.
- Patronize dog friendly restaurants, even if you don’t have the fur kids with you, and personally thank management for their policy.
- And as a general tip for all pet owners, PICK UP AFTER YOUR DOG. This is THE one common gripe shared by everyone. The thoughtlessness of some pet owners is extended to anyone and everyone holding a leash.
Tips for People Dining Near Dogs –
- Ignore the dog. If you see me enjoying a relaxing meal, my dog lying peacefully at my feet, please don’t approach us asking if you can pet the pooch. In exchange, I won’t come over to your table and scratch behind the ears of your kid and get her all worked up.
- Ask for permission. If you simply can’t resist, please ask for permission to approach us before you stick your hand in my dog’s face. And don’t get hurt feelings if I say no.
- Be open minded. If you don’t like seeing dogs at restaurants, figure out what really has you bothered and see if it has any basis in fact.
So what do you think? Please share your thoughts and comments with us!
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I think the objections to having a dog at a restaurant are more theoretical than actual. Many people who have a problem with dining with dogs don't have a clue to what dogs actually do under the circumstances. For example, dogs don't just relieve themselves or poop while hanging out under a restaurant table; they're far picker than — and yes, we have to go there — human children about where they go to the bathroom. And of course you're right that they're held to a far higher sanitation standard than humans.
No one is requesting that dogs be allowed in Lutece (though, again, the French are far more sympathetic to the notion of animals as part of everyday life). Dogs can't be adversely influenced by bad words and inebriated behavior. Why not allow them in a few pubs and casual restaurants?
I remember my veterinarian telling me that dogs have less germs in their mouths than humans. So, I am not worried about dog germs. And I agree with you about kids. I hate going to restaurants with noisy misbehaved children. I'm the mom of a 9-year old and he has dined at many upscale restaurants. We have had other patrons tell us how well behaved he was. The same rule applies to dogs. When I go to a restaurant, I want the experience to be pleasant. I want to be seated as far away as possible from an unruly dog or child.
Edie … All good points. Two things really surprised me about the two posts I did. #1 – The anger in many of the negative comments. No rational argument was offered … just more of a I-hate-dogs sentiment seeping through. #2 – There were many dog owners who were not more “pro-choice” on the issue, i.e., OK, I wouldn't bring my pup to a restaurant, but I sure understand why pet owners want/need places to go to dine with their dog.
Hi Michelle. As you probably read in my post I chose not to play the “my dog is better than your kid” card. However, this sentiment was clearly evident in MANY of the comments I reviewed. And I think your point is well-taken … that whether you have a child or dog at a restaurant, both need to be “well trained” to be there. Also, to people who say that the only way my child can do better at a restaurant is to practice – well, the same applies to my dog, too. We practiced with our dogs by eating at restaurants during off-peak hours when customer traffic would be minimal.
I totally agree. My husband and I used to do a lot of travel writing. We would bring Jordon, our son, with us all the time. Many of the times we would dine at upscale restaurants. Often people would remark that he had good table manners. I totally understand when couples go out alone and don't want their dinner ruined by an unruly child–or dog. I see no difference. And we trained our child to have good table manners by taking him to family friendly restaurants and bribing him with dessert. Dessert always worked.
I think it's funny that people think they could somehow catch a disease from a dog in a restaurant. I mean, really, nearly 40% of US households have a dog. You'd think “dog disease” would be all over the news – because you KNOW these dogs (including our own) are sitting right beside the table giving their best “puppy-dog eyes” while their people are eating.
I agree with Edie's comment – there are places in this world where animals are part of everyday life, and from Anil's comment yesterday – dogs in Europe tend to be better behaved. Is this rocket science?? If we are afforded the opportunity to include our dogs in our everyday lives they will be better adjusted, more well-behaved members of society. The answer to training issues is not to limit access, it's to grant more access.
I like that last thought: If we are afforded the opportunity to include our dogs in our everyday lives they will be better adjusted, more well-behaved members of society. The answer to training issues is not to limit access, it's to grant more access.
Disease transmissions? Obvious red herring. Humans transfer diseases a LOT more efficiently than dogs do. Besides, recent research on hygiene hypothesis implies we're being way too germaphobic in the first place — not that dogs would even add to “germ load” in a restaurant in the first place.
Allergies? Yes, I could see that. That's where the patio thing could work out, or just good air circulation — I'm very allergic to cats, but it's all fine unless I'm petting one. Don't pet the dogs, or go to a non-dog place.
Anyway, as I said in your part one (and you did as well) the whole “I need to find some way to differentiate my establishment” combined with sites like yours giving basically free advertising and driving traffic (often from thousands of miles away — I'm planning a trip using it) may just make this whole niche bloom for the benefit of dog owners, and once struggling restaurant establishments willing to take a small risk.
Bad dogs/owners? Ya, here's the sticky issue: How to tell the teenager who wants to take his growly, out of control sixteen month old protection breed pup out with his buddies for a few beers that maybe he should leave before it gets out of control. That sort of “fine line” decision that I'd hate to make…
when I was raising my labs for service work, a local hospital tried to bar access into a patient prep area, when I needed a routine test. The nurse remarked that dogs had germs and should not be in a “sterile” area. You know what? There are more germs on peoples shoes than there are on dogs. The same holds true for restaurants. There are unhealthy microbes in lots of food, come to think of it.
European countries enjoy the benefits of being able to dine with their dogs. There are studies proving the health benefits of a close relationship to a furry being. So why not? I would think those not in agreement could certainly find themselves a strictly non-doggy establishment; the latter certainly far outnumber dog friendly locations. I don`t think any responsible pet owner would attempt to bring an untrained unfriendly dog to a dining out situation, just cannot imagine it. For that matter (and I really do love kids but don`t have any) I have had a few memorable dining experiences, close encounters with shrieking unruly kids. Not going any further than that! haha!!
I would LOVE to be able to bring Dash with me to restaurants. Last summer one of the local restaurants opened up the restaurant to dogs and dog owners for a fundraiser for a local charity. It was kind of surreal to be eating lunch with all of these dogs lounging around. Just about everyone's dog was well behaved and it was a really fun event. The only bad side was the number of dog owners who didn't make sure their pups had relieved themselves BEFORE coming into the restaurant. I'm not sure whether the waitstaff spent more time cleaning up bathroom accidents or actually waiting on tables.
You would think the owners would have had enough sense to make sure their dogs took care of business before coming inside of the restaurant, but I guess sometimes accidents just happen!
I think the only tough thing about having dogs in restaurants is that not everyone is a responsible dog owner. Yet, everyone seems to think that they are.
Good discussion! We visit pet friendly restaurants in and around Charlotte, NC. One of our favorites is Caribou Coffee, Pineville. Always a water dish sitting outside for their canine outdoor dining guests! There is just too much controversy about indoor dining with dogs and I don't feel it's worth the hassle and prefer to just take my business where my Astrid is welcome outdoors.
I agree with EdieJ – I know a lot of people who object “on principle.” When I ask where they ran into a particular problem, I tend to get the evasive: “well, I haven't, but I'm sure it happens all the time”.
I've done a group trip with members of MN Bully Lovers to a local bar with a dog-friendly patio. For us, when we're out in public, we know our dogs are viewed as representatives of not only the dog community, but also specifically ambassadors of our breed(s) of choice.
I think anyone dining out with their dog should keep that in mind – if your dog isn't ready for that situation, please don't set them up for failure. That only discredits the rest of the dog-loving community to other diners and staff.
^^ “if your dog isn't ready for that situation, please don't set them up for failure. That only discredits the rest of the dog-loving community to other diners and staff.”
Well said!
That is the big thing, isn't it? TRAINING. AND SOCIALIZATION.
It sounds like Europe is way ahead of the curve compared to North America. If it is working for them, perhaps establishments here should just follow the European road map.
If it's working in Europe, they must have solutions for most of the concerns that people have about dogs, people and food all coalescing.
Lots of interesting comments! First off, I am completely for having the option of taking your dog to a restaurant. I'm not sure that, from a business standpoint, legislating it is the best solution, but I love knowing that my favorite bar and favorite diner will allow my pup to tag along.
I can see some of the other side as well. I am allergic to smoke and was very thankful when my state (Arizona) passed an ordinance to ban indoor smoking. Unfortunately, this means that I have to choose between taking my dog dining or sitting smoke-free indoors. I pick smoke-free every time. From that angle, I can see why those with allergies would be concerned about allowing pets at restaurants.
Kudos to everyone who has their dog trained to be well-behaved enough to go to restaurants, etc. Like Rebecca said, not everyone is a responsible dog owner, and I think that's where the real problem is. There are too many parents (of both pets and humans) who shrug off misbehavior as cute or funny without regard to those in the vicinity. Not everyone will recognize unruly behavior as such and leave for the benefit of other patrons. Perhaps this is where the restaurant plays a bigger role – making sure that everyone is on their best behavior? Bars kick out drunks on a regular basis…
I am wondering if Europe doesn't have/need a solution for the concerns Americans have about dogs. If, per Anil's comment from yesterday, it may be that dogs “over there” are better trained. Though I am hard-pressed to believe that Europeans spend more time training their dogs than we do. However, I lived/worked in Brussels for 18 months, and I've been to Paris twice – the one observation I can make is that Europeans do seem to treat their pets more like pets … not as human extensions of themselves.
Jim, as another thought, it seems Canada has tougher regulations banning dog friendly dining (even on outdoor patios) than does the US. #1, is that true and #2, if so, why? (if you know)
You bring up smoking, which is a good point. Interestingly, in Philly (and maybe now for all of PA) bars must be smoke free if a certain percentage of their revenues comes from food. Not so in AZ? And your comment implies that there is a choice to be made. If you don't want to dine with smokers, there is a non-smoking option available. If non-pet lovers don't want to dine with dogs, there is a non-doggie option, too. What I don't like to read/hear are angry comments from people who don't think dogs belong in (outdoor) restaurants just because they don't like dogs … or believe that they're unsanitary … or believe that an unusually large segment of the population is allergic to dogs.
I think Sonia meant that AZ did pass a smoking ban inside restaurants, but smoking is allowed if people are eating outside, so she has to choose whether to take her pup along and deal with the smoke – which she is allergic to – or leave the pup behind and dine inside. She makes a really interesting point which I can identify with, because I'm allergic to smoke as well. I'm also allergic to cats. However, sitting at a table with someone who's smoking is a lot more irritating to me than sitting at a table with a cat, as long as I don't touch the cat! Do other people with pet allergies experience a reaction just by being in proximity of a pet, even if they are outdoors??
In addition – some hotels require pet travelers to stay in smoking rooms! What's up with that?!?! Smoking is a dangerous habit and second hand smoke has been proven to be life-threatening. The desire to include my pet in my daily life should not mean I should have to risk my health!
I agree that if someone can bring their unruly kids to interfere with my dining experience, what's wrong with a well-behaved dog? An unruly dog needs to stay home. Wish parents would follow that rule with their kids. As long as the place is not so crowded that the dog is getting stepped on by waitstaff, and can sit quietly while you eat, I think it would help a lot of singles and the elderly get out more. And dividing restaurants into dog people and not dog people, like they used to do with smokers, is a good idea. Not as much loss of clientele, or threat of it. Most people who are against this just aren't comfortable with change–like many people, it's not “right” because it's never been done.
In response to the people that say, “your only going to be gone for a couple of hours, why cant you just leave the dog at home?” Some of us have full time jobs and are already gone 8-10 hours a day. I feel bad leaving my dog home for another 2-3 hours while I go out, so I usually end up not going out, or if I do, I don't really enjoy it because I feel bad she's alone even longer. Therefore I rush everything to get home. What is enjoyable or relaxing about that? Dog owners need a place they can unwind after work, grab a bite to eat, and have a couple of drinks with their friend like everyone else without feeling like a bad pet owners. And for those who say; “why bring the dogs to some place that will not be enjoyable to them, forcing them to lie on the cold ground?” My dog, as I am sure many other dogs, are just happy to be included and to get to spend time with their owner even if they only get to lay at the owners feet. Let me add, if they get lucky enough to have a crumb fall on the floor in front of them, it makes it even more enjoyable for them. So it's a win, win for the owner and dog. For those that do not care for dogs at restaurant establishments, as long as the dogs and owner are restricted to the patio, you have the option to sit inside to keep away. If you must sit on a patio, go to a place that does not allow dogs if it bothers you that much OR if you like a specific place and patio that much please just learn to deal with it. As much as I can't stand being around smokers, if I want to enjoy a patio I have to put up with it, otherwise I have to sit inside, although that is not an option with a dog. So to all you not no-dog enthusiasts, hey at least you have a variety of options. We dog owners on the other hand, really only have one. Besides as long as the dog is well trained/behaved, you wont even know it is there.
You are preaching to the choir! And we love your voice!!
Hey, I have a cat, and I love it when I see a dog in a restaurant, store, etc. It tells me it's pet friendly, and I want to shop there.